SPORTS CLASS RULES OK...

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AlanGoodman View Drop Down

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Posted: 20 October 2005 at 8:22pm

NickM wrote:

While I approve of most of the proposed rules, I must say I am firmly against any speed restriction. Surely classes are for machines, not riders? Put Paul Collender on a tail-faired Kingcycle on a fast circuit, and I don't think he'd have too much difficulty in cracking a 25mph average.

It's tricky to come up with a set of rules that are easy to enforce and cover all possible macines (the Dutch Flyer for example - a very high bike where the rider lies almost flat...) An upper speed limit is a simple way of keeping out fast, pure racing machines without over-complicated rules.

I'll offer my Kingcycle for test purposes... If Paul (or anybody else) can average over 25MPH for 40 minutes on it anywhere I'll buy them a pint!!

I think Sports Class is for those of us with less ability as well as slower but more practical machines. I see it as a sort of Unfaired Division Two!

There are plenty of people who would wipe the floor with us Sports Class slackers (Mr Flemming springs to mind) riding a unicycle with one leg tied behind his back but that wouldn't really be in the spirit of it...

Sports Class gives the less serious people something to compete in.

I'm living proof that any numpty who turns up enough has a chance of winning Sports Class!

Alan

Edited by AlanGoodman

garryb59

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Posted: 20 October 2005 at 9:20pm

Alan wrote:
"I think Sports Class is for those of us with less ability as well as slower but more practical machines. I see it as a sort of Unfaired Division Two!"

Ha...good description Alan, but [pedantically speaking] I hope 'Division Two is not a reference to the Football Association leagues, since the current Division Two is the old Division 4!!!!....which actually is closer to the mark: fully faired, followed by enviably fit soandsos on low carbon bikes, followed by slightly less fitter folk that go faster than me....then me and anybody like me :-)

My next hatchet job is a low racer kind of effort, but I have this ominious feeling that it's not going to make a blind bit of difference, other than pitting myself against the untouchables! Still...

I'd be interested to see anybody who's gone through the whole gamut of all the different styles of bikes out there, and how they've found a difference in performance between them. My guess is that it becomes much more difficult to gauge the difference between a steel low racer [a non sports bike] and another steel swb where the seat and BB and higher [hence a sports bike], when riden by the same rider. No?

Composite materials like CF surely throw another spanner in the works.
Two identical bikes[any class], one made from steel and the other from CF with a big differential in weight - advantage or not?

Anyway, no answers here I'm afraid, certainly a subject to get your head in a tangle with that's for sure :-)

cheers
Garry

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Posted: 21 October 2005 at 8:49am

Garry

Lots of us have played with all sorts of designs and materials - one of the many reasons us homebuilders love it ! Probably worth having a another thread though - otherwise once we get going, it would probably hijack this one ....

NickM

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Posted: 21 October 2005 at 9:08am

AlanGoodman wrote:

...I think Sports Class is for those of us with less ability as well as slower but more practical machines. I see it as a sort of Unfaired Division Two!

Sports Class gives the less serious people something to compete in.

But I am not "less serious" about racing because I only have one recumbent, and that happens to be a Sports Class machine.

I came to HPV racing from a time trialling background. My partner and I were pretty serious about that form of racing, competing twice most weeks throughout the summer; we only stopped time trialling because of the ever-increasing risk associated with riding fast courses, that and because events at civilised times (i.e. Saturday afternoons) have become pretty much a thing of the past in the South East.

Newcomers to HPV racing are, I would suggest, just as likely to come from other forms of competitive cycling as from touring or Audax backgrounds, and like me, will want to see just what they can do in this branch of the sport. Now that I have found an interesting replacement sport, I intend to train and race just as hard as I used to.

Nevertheless, I cannot justify buying a fairly expensive machine which is used only for racing, and so sits in the shed most of the time. So don't spend that beer money yet, Alan - I'll make my Kingcycle do 25mph if I can! My upright could, and recumbents are faster than uprights, aren't they?

AlanGoodman View Drop Down

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Posted: 21 October 2005 at 11:58am

NickM wrote:

But I am not "less serious" about racing

I think it would be fair to say that nobody currently competing in Sports Class is taking it very seriously... Personally I really enjoy the racing and the atmosphere generated by a bunch of like-minded people playing with their bikes, but I really don't worry too much about the results...

NickM wrote:

I intend to train and race just as hard as I used to.

Mind your language, Nick - this is a family forum...

NickM wrote:

I'll make my Kingcycle do 25mph if I can! My upright could, and recumbents are faster than uprights, aren't they?

On most of my regular rides (usually with a few hills) I am faster on my old winter bike (grotty mountain bike with road tyres) than I am on my Kingcycle...

I look forward to buying you that pint! I reckon Newport will give you your best chance as long as you can attach a tow-rope to Mr Chattington!!

Seriously... Have a look through past results... You will be doing VERY well to go anywhere near 25MPH on an unfaired Kingcycle...

*** I've got a nasty feeling I've just given Nick a huge incentive for some winter training and I'm likely to end up eating those words!!***

Adrian Setter View Drop Down

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Posted: 21 October 2005 at 12:38pm

garyb59 wrote:

I'd be interested to see anybody who's gone through the whole gamut of all the different styles of bikes out there, and how they've found a difference in performance between them.

I can't claim to have compared a wide range of HPV's, but with particular relevance to this debate, I have compared my speeds on a Hurricane with those on a Ratracer. It's difficult to be 100% sure, since increased experience and fitness appear to have speeded me up over the years (it's that or sitting-up the Hurricane's seat to pass the 105 cm rule made it faster) but the Ratracer seems to be about 1.5 mph faster at race speeds. On a Hurricane, I was able to stay with the fast boys for the first couple of minutes; moving to a Ratracer I could stay in the lead group until the end of the race. NeilF says that the No.com is 5% (about 1mph) faster still, but if that's true, he really should have been beating me even more easily than he has this year. Wink

I have to say that I share NickM's concerns about having any rule that has to do with athletic ability; Isn't the point of having different classes to provide a series of relatively level playing-fields on which people can compete, rather than being totally out of it because of limits on the technology they have the wherewithal to buy, build, store, or transport? To my mind a rule like that (other than in the context of disability sport) makes even the dafter UCI restrictions - a minimum weight limit, anyone? - look sane. Now, you could have a rule that excludes machines that are capable of being ridden to 25mph by a club member. But Rob English can probably do that on an MTB. With knobbly tyres on.

Would such a rule make any worthwhile difference anyway? History shows that every Sports champion to date has left the class open to the rest by going on to faster and lower things the following season. I believe that there are a couple of Ratracers up for sale, so how about it, Alan ? Evil Smile

AlanGoodman wrote:

Seriously... Have a look through past results... You will be doing VERY well to go anywhere near 25MPH on an unfaired Kingcycle...

Well, Dave Larrington got within half a mile an hour, as would Richard Everett in the same race (Lancaster 2000) had it not been for the intervention of a certain American. And Hurricanes and Ratcatchers, which I don't reckon to be much faster, have exceeded 25mph by some margin.

Edited by Adrian Setter

Challenge Hurricane - MicWic Delta (Front half) - Burrows Ratracer

AlanGoodman View Drop Down

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Posted: 21 October 2005 at 1:03pm

Adrian Setter wrote:

History shows that every Sports champion to date has left the class open to the rest by going on to faster and lower things the following season. I believe that there are a couple of Ratracers up for sale, so how about it, Alan ? Evil Smile

Going as slowly as I do on a Hurricane/Kingcycle is embarrasing enough!! I wouldn't have any excuses on a Ratracer...

In fairness, I think all of the previous winners were a LOT faster than me and had to work a lot harder to win it...

If the Sports Class rules aren't sorted (and it's looking very unlikely that we'll get agreement) then I will just be competing in O/U on the Hurri next year and let others worry about keeping their eyes over 105cm!!

I'll still be racing the same people in individual races and I won't enjoy that any less...

jes@gcre

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Posted: 21 October 2005 at 3:44pm

AlanGoodman wrote:

Question:

If everyone in sports class is of that opinion, why have a class at all?

If they aren't worried about the results then why will they be worried about the results in a different class?

Just a thought.

Edited by jes@gcre

Racing is life...
Anything which happens before or afterwards is just standing around waiting to race....

AlanGoodman View Drop Down

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Posted: 21 October 2005 at 4:10pm

jes@gcre wrote:

If everyone in sports class is of that opinion, why have a class at all?

Good question!

I think the purpose of Sports Class is to provide a bit of interest for the less serious racers who have absolutely no chance of competing with the streamliners and faster unfaired types...

I am pretty confident when I say that nobody was taking it very seriously this year... If anybody had been they would certainly have beaten me!! Only 8 people completed the 8 races and 3 of those were juniors. There were at least two people (David Hembrow and Paul Collender) who would have easily finished ahead of me by simply turning up to more races.

Maybe it should be called "Fun" class or something...

AlanGoodman View Drop Down

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Posted: 21 October 2005 at 4:17pm

SO....

Are we getting anywhere near to a set of rules that people think would work??

If we just drop the 25MPH thing and replace the eye height with a seat height would everybody be happy????

Would anybody like to make a case for leaving it as it is??