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geoff birds new trike

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URL: https://forum.bhpc.org.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5110
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 3:18am
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Topic: geoff birds new trike
Posted By: robh24
Subject: geoff birds new trike
Date Posted: 01 April 2015 at 1:35pm
Not just his trike but general faired bikes. The cfd and all I have ever seen is always straight into the incoming air. Reading solar car books its clear some shapes perform significantly better than others when not heading straight into the incoming flow. It must be worse for bikes as the wind vs bike speed is closer than cars. Does anyone have any details of how knee blisters head bubbles etc effect drag?



Replies:
Posted By: robh24
Date Posted: 01 April 2015 at 2:46pm
*sidewind would have been a better term


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 02 April 2015 at 11:25pm
Hi rob, you can do CFD with the model at an angle to airflow - If I had unlimited access to CFD facilities then it is something I would definitely try. Graham Sparey-Taylor and I were plotting to do some CFD runs on different streamlined bike shape a few years ago to research crosswind stability but nothing came of it.

Blisters and bubbles aren't the ideal aerodynamically - a homogeneous shape is better as there is less parasitic drag, but if you are designing a circuit racer (or road machine), as opposed to a Battle Mountain machine, then it has to be practical for use in a wide range of conditions otherwise that theoretical speed will never, or rarely, be realised.

In terms of side wind stability as opposed to efficiency, a profile that maintains attached flow in a side wind will probably be less stable as it will act like a wing or sail to create a larger side force.

New smoother nose below.




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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: robh24
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 7:39am
It looks lovely and I understand the importance of being able to see where your going. I was just wondering how much the drag increase therefore the speed drop? I suppose the competition slows as well so it's not a problem. Once you have a cad model how long does a cfd simulation

Hopefully I'll make it to at least one event this year


Posted By: blogwat
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 9:32am
Good luck with the new build Geoff it looks amazing can't wait to see it in real life and watch how it performs.
Jeff.


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when your up to your waist in aligators they forget to tell you you've got to clear the swamp


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 11:22am
Thanks guys. I don't know how long it takes to do a CFD simulation cos someone else (very kindly) did it for me. You have to create a mesh from the CAD surfaces first and then let the computer whirr away.  the initial run suggested as much as a 25% drag penalty for a lumpy shape, but it was a fairly crude shape, so don't know without doing more tests.

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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Yanto
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 4:49pm
i'll be following this project, oh yes!

Looks rather good by the way Big smile


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 7:41pm
I was very much inspired by your variants of Bubble & Squeak/Wobbly Bob, Ian.

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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Yanto
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 8:02pm
Too kind, at least you will be able to do it properly, i won't be offering my technical skills.

I hope I fit in it though, wouldn't mind a spin in it, not literally of course!

A couple of thoughts about it though; with the height and length of the foot/knee bubbles seeing the apex of a bend might be a problem, of course if you take a nice safe line it won't matter, but if you want to running with a tyre on the edge of the grass it might, also i think you might have overestimated the gap between knee bulges. However without seeing scale drawings it's hard to tell, it also depends on the width of your hips and what width BB you are using of course, just sit and stick your legs out and see what width you have between your knees and then allow clearance for the bubbles, believe me knees and bubbles don't go together, and if they do blood will soon flow.



Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 9:39pm
I'm not using a particularly narrow bottom bracket for that reason. The ergonomic mock up should ensure everything clears. It looks like I might have quite a good sight line behind the bubbles. It shouldn't be any worse than the Milan.

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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Andy TS
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 9:44pm
Looks really nice and fast. I'm sure it will be quick as anything that mean looking has to be. Please paint it Matt black or gunmetal.
Really would like to see this when finished and if I fit can I blag a go around the track 😄

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Allewedder A2, Broken Optima Baron Lowracer


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 03 April 2015 at 9:54pm
Choosing the colour is the easy bit Andy! After  all these kind comments, I suppose I'd better get on and build it. BTW, the front hubs finally arrived:




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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Andy TS
Date Posted: 04 April 2015 at 9:55am
solid disk wheels?

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Allewedder A2, Broken Optima Baron Lowracer


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 04 April 2015 at 10:36am
Same as my last bike.




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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: robh24
Date Posted: 04 April 2015 at 7:19pm
Cool. Plese Keep the photos coming. I don't want to wait 3 months for the next magazine


Posted By: AlanGoodman
Date Posted: 04 April 2015 at 7:39pm
Are you a club member Rob?? If so we need to change your group on here from "Visitor" to "Member"...
 


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Posted By: robh24
Date Posted: 04 April 2015 at 7:43pm
Yes I'm a member


Posted By: AlanGoodman
Date Posted: 04 April 2015 at 7:46pm
Cool - I've just changed your forum status... You may need to log out and back in again for it to take effect...

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Posted By: Yanto
Date Posted: 04 April 2015 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by GeoffBird GeoffBird wrote:

Same as my last bike.



Oh i do like a bit of bike porn Embarrassed


Posted By: Andy TS
Date Posted: 04 April 2015 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by Yanto Yanto wrote:

Originally posted by GeoffBird GeoffBird wrote:

Same as my last bike.





Oh i do like a bit of bike porn Embarrassed


Stop it my wife already thinks I look at bikes too much 😄

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Allewedder A2, Broken Optima Baron Lowracer


Posted By: Karl
Date Posted: 05 April 2015 at 8:22pm
Geoff,
Bit of a curiosity question, 
When you use your cfd package to determine the flow over the shape how do you know that your predictions are close to real world(tm)? The speeds are much slower than with automotive design and with that the error factor will be larger no? 
The reason for asking is in any kind of cfd you need to calibrate your model other wise its dare I say bullsh*t in bullsh*t out? As we found with flow optimisation in a previous life playing with water treatment equipment. 

Will you expand a little.

But other wise a very sleek and lovely looking machine.. I am jealous :-)

Karl


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 05 April 2015 at 9:08pm
Hi Karl,

As I said in the article, CFD is only a comparative tool at this level, so all you can do is do a baseline run and try changing things to see the effect I haven't got past the baseline yet, but do have a comparison with another shape (similar to Bubble & Squeak) using the same settings. Speed shouldn't be so much of an issue as CFD should correct for Reynolds Number, whereas this can be a problem for scale models of cars and aeroplanes in wind tunnels. So yes you're right, you have to correct against real world data to get a realistic figure (this is true for wind tunnels too). As an illustration of the problem, Miles is getting less than half the drag force with his CFD package at the same speed for a very similar shape (not mine) on the system I used (or was used for me).

We're just shining a torch into the vast darkness - we can't afford floodlights!


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: robh24
Date Posted: 06 April 2015 at 2:20pm
What's the advantage of those wheels. Lighter, stronger?


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 06 April 2015 at 2:24pm
Neither of those things Rob! They are a bit heavier and probably no stronger. However, they give a small amount of 'dish' which allows you to get the brake disc and therefore the suspension upright/steering axis much nearer tyre centreline. And they look cool IMHO Smile

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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: russellbridge
Date Posted: 07 April 2015 at 4:28pm
It's a great article in the magazine re the new machine - I was re-reading it over breakfast this morning - many thanks Geoff
Russ


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 07 April 2015 at 9:16pm
Thanks Russ. Gratuitous shininess (it's easier than building things...):





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Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 18 April 2015 at 3:18pm
The initial CFD results on the new shape are just in. Big improvement! About 22%, making the drag about the same as a Bubble & Squeak type machine. A couple of images from the CFD below. I don't understand the total pressure map - thought total pressure was constant (and equal to static plus dynamic pressure) - can someone explain? Looks dramatic anyway Smile.






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Posted By: Yanto
Date Posted: 18 April 2015 at 9:53pm
Geoff I can't help you unfortunately, however where do i put my name down to buy one?



Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 19 April 2015 at 12:08am
Thanks for the implied compliment Ian. I think building one is going to be enough of a struggle! If you're serious, then I'm already discussing with someone else about getting a third party to take another set of mouldings off the moulds. But I'd wait until you see how it comes out before committing to anything Smile

One step at a time...


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 19 April 2015 at 10:39pm


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Yanto
Date Posted: 20 April 2015 at 7:17am
You know Geoff I have literally dozens of sketches and scale drawings that look exactly like that, my problem was converting them into something 3D.  I know you can do do it, and as such I'm living the project with you and will be interested to see how the reality develops from the drawing.

Things such as hand/wheel interaction when turning, heel strike when getting tired, knee strike when pushing hard and accelerating, adjusting brakes, removing rear wheel for tyre change, siting of computer, drinking etc.

Also i'm interested if you are designing in Ackermann steering geometry, B&S didn't have it, i changed in as far as i could although it was still a little short, it increased tyre life and reduced twitchyness. 

 


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 20 April 2015 at 9:19pm
Wow, I feel a certain responsibility on my shoulders now! Smile I am trying very hard to get the ergonomics right, at least for me - I go with Alex Moulton's mantra about a bike being 'pleasing to use', which is probably why I'll never make a great race car designer!

All the things you've mentioned are things I've already considered (which is not the same as getting them right of course). I plan to do an article in the next mag about the mechanical bits but I had already been advised strongly to get the Ackermann right by someone who knows about these things.

If you could tell me your vital statistics Ian then I might be able to tweak the design so that you'll fit as well. My problem is that I have short legs, even for my height, which tends to mean lack of knee clearance etc. for others...


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: garryb59
Date Posted: 20 April 2015 at 10:18pm
Amazing stuff Geoff - the article in the magazine, the project, all the thought that goes into a build like this.

Made me laugh though...I was looking at the http://homepage.ntlworld.com/vindaloo77/100_1960.JPG" rel="nofollow - drawings for my latest bike , and thought....yeah, bit of a difference in approach here LOL

But actually, in all seriousness, it is important to think all these things through, and it's something I am looking to improve on next time around, or else you just get into crazy situations where you're building something from guess work [or closing one eye as you look down a seeming straight line somewhere only to realize subsequently that you're about 6" out of true!] and although that might be a free and easy way to do things....at the end of the day, there's so much more to it than that.
So thanks for setting an example!


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 21 April 2015 at 12:06am
Not at all Garry - CAD is for people without the imagination to work from sketches!

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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: BarneyH
Date Posted: 21 April 2015 at 6:34pm
Garry 

That's spot on as a design brief, any engineer would be happy to work from that.  Good to see you're using English measurement units.

Barney


Posted By: Wyndrake
Date Posted: 22 April 2015 at 11:40am
Originally posted by GeoffBird GeoffBird wrote:


"If you could tell me your vital statistics Ian......................"


Where are the Forum Moderators when they are needed? Shocked




Posted By: Yanto
Date Posted: 22 April 2015 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by Wyndrake Wyndrake wrote:

Originally posted by GeoffBird GeoffBird wrote:


"If you could tell me your vital statistics Ian......................"


Where are the Forum Moderators when they are needed? Shocked



I just ignored it, my mum told me about men like him, driving around in Lifestyle vehicles  vans.  However, I am going to get him in a quiet corner at York so we can compare "limbs" Wink


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 22 April 2015 at 6:35pm
Well, all I can say is, I'm getting the patterns cut in a week's time so I hope you don't have any extremities likely to protrude through the bodyshell Ian - Just sayin' :-)

By the way, I AM a forum moderator <Fx: evil laugh>


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Yanto
Date Posted: 22 April 2015 at 9:25pm
Geoff, seriously, thank you for the chance to have it "adapted" for me, but it really should be a snug fit for you and nobody else.


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 25 May 2015 at 2:03pm
Russell has very kindly made me a !:20 scale rapid prototype model of my trike:

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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Andy TS
Date Posted: 15 June 2015 at 9:56am
Is it wrong to drool.... Very nice...

Cant wait to see it in the flesh.


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Allewedder A2, Broken Optima Baron Lowracer


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 30 July 2015 at 11:00pm
For those of you who don't receive the magazine, here's some more pictures:





Update: Unfortunately the resin to make the moulds was delayed at the Channel Tunnel until after the end of my week off so I won't have the opportunity to make the moulds until I get another break. I've redesigned the rear suspension as a full five link system, which, although it looks more complicated, will be easier to make. It also gives good anti-squat geometry. Images to follow in a bit.


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: robh24
Date Posted: 04 August 2015 at 9:42pm
Geoff. Do you have a estimated weight? it these speeds isnt rolling resistance a large drag percentage. Would you end up with a fastermmachine if you sacrifice some areo and complexity for simple and light


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 04 August 2015 at 10:33pm
I'm trying to keep it light - even without suspension. you still need something to attach the wheels to the chassis. Most of the weight and hence the F=MxCrr is the rider! :-)

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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: robh24
Date Posted: 21 August 2015 at 10:33am
I might be in the minority but I would find it fascinating if you could go through the calculations on designing and specifying the tubes on the suspension. I really enjoy the design and build sections of the magazine


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 15 September 2015 at 9:12pm
Hi Rob, might do that at some point. Thanks for your interest.

I've started making the moulds for the bodyshell - pictures below:




 


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 04 October 2015 at 10:09pm
Making progress with the pattern for the centre section:








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Posted By: Karl
Date Posted: 05 October 2015 at 7:41pm
Geoff, very impressed, I'm presuming Fiona is going to let you continuing the build in the house through winter... wouldn't want any thermal distortion in the shed Wink

I'd best get my skates on and build something to compete against you in.. mind you your performance at the last race I'll have my work cut out keeping up regardless of what your in!!

Karl



Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 05 October 2015 at 8:27pm
Thanks Karl. I've retired to the Gazebo now, although it's a bit damp in there. Frantically slapped PU varnish all over it last night. Please note - I don't have a large, well equipped workshop - almost anyone has the facilities to do this stuff :-)

Would be great to see a faired Speedy on the tracks again Karl! They were in their ascendancy when I first attended BHPC races back in the early 1990's. You can get your own back then, although you'll probably only have to wait til Hillingdon to do that...


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: AlanGoodman
Date Posted: 06 October 2015 at 12:19am
I still hope to be racing my faired Speedy next year (although that was the plan this year!)
 


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Posted By: Yanto
Date Posted: 06 October 2015 at 7:49am
MF will rule the world, well dominate racing next year - I can't wait Big smile


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 06 October 2015 at 10:20pm
...Mind you, we all said this at the beginning of this season...

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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 12 October 2015 at 10:23pm
Pattern for main body nearly finished...



...and checking CNC'd patterns fit - a few minor adjustments required.





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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Helmetcosmos
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 4:36pm
This one is actually really good looking. Nice to see the building process, Do you have any new photos? 


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 04 April 2016 at 10:08pm
Thanks Kilian,

Not made much progress recently but here's a few more. The BHPC magazine (LaidBack Cyclist) often has build articles. This year you can get 5 PDF copies for just £6 (click on the logo at the top of this page and go to 'Shop').

.








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Posted By: robh24
Date Posted: 07 April 2016 at 12:24pm
Thanks for a the article in the latest magazine. I need to read it a few more times to get to grips with it.



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