A question about BHPC race formats
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URL: https://forum.bhpc.org.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3019
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Topic: A question about BHPC race formats
Posted By: 25hz
Subject: A question about BHPC race formats
Date Posted: 23 June 2009 at 2:48pm
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In going back through the newsletters, I noticed that the majority of races that the BHPC holds are of the endurance format, as opposed to shorter sprints. I was wondering why the BHPC doesn't also hold shorter format races like 200m and 1km as maybe a prelude to the longer lap races? The riders aren't interested in the sprints? Time constraints? Just curious :)
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Replies:
Posted By: Andrew S
Date Posted: 23 June 2009 at 3:29pm
The reasons are mostly practical:
- 200m sprints pretty much require electronic timing, which we don't have (at least not as yet in a totally reliable form). 1km sprints can just about be done with manual timing and were included in the programme at Reading this year.
- Until this year the software we use for results wasn't able to combine more than one race (eg a sprint and a criterium) per event. That is now possible and so this year several of the events have multiple 'rounds' as we call them.
So, while you won't have seen this in previous years you will probably see it more and more from now on.
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Posted By: Adrian Setter
Date Posted: 23 June 2009 at 3:41pm
Andrew S wrote:
So, while you won't have seen this in previous years you will probably see it more and more from now on.
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Indeed. Already this season, POINTS races have included a 1k at Reading and, at Fowlmead (yet to be posted, but coming soon) a short (about 4km) time trial. Thanks again to Kevin for updating the race software to make this possible.
The longer races are likely to continue to be the core of most meetings: not many of us want to travel hundreds of miles just for a 13-second sprint.
------------- Challenge Hurricane - MicWic Delta (Front half) - Burrows Ratracer
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Posted By: 25hz
Date Posted: 24 June 2009 at 12:40pm
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Cool, thanks. Multi-round events, I think, definitely make it more worthwhile to spend the time and money to attend. One of the things that makes the HPRA races worth the large distances travelled to get to them is the fact that there are at least 6 different races per day that I can particpate in. For the last event, my total mileage for the two days of racing was a little over 150km at race speeds. By the end of the 2nd day, there was nothing left in my legs. It was great. Add to that the bonus that there are small cash purses for each race, and so far, with the appropriate sacrifices to the racing gods, I've managed to decently subsidize the travel costs with winnings.
Do you guys also track course records for the various events and classes too?
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Posted By: Paul Lowing
Date Posted: 24 June 2009 at 1:08pm
Don't start the cash prize discussion!
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Posted By: Adrian Setter
Date Posted: 24 June 2009 at 1:59pm
Then again, if we had cash prizes, maybe that would supplement Mr Burrows' pension enough for him to retire properly, close his workshop and stop churning out the go-faster technology with which he can beat those of us who are merely middle-aged. 
------------- Challenge Hurricane - MicWic Delta (Front half) - Burrows Ratracer
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Posted By: Paul Lowing
Date Posted: 24 June 2009 at 2:10pm
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He might retire properly and then spend ALL his time on churning out go-faster technology...
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Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 24 June 2009 at 5:24pm
In cycling terms, ours are not endurance events! The 4 hour race at the Worlds is closer to it. No prize money please! We have enough trouble working out who won what, without deciding who deserves what.
------------- jdub... Got the T-shirt http://protobikes.org.uk/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/
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Posted By: legs_larry
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 11:42am
Andrew S wrote:
- Until this year the software we use for results wasn't able to combine more than one race (eg a sprint and a criterium) per event. That is now possible and so this year several of the events have multiple 'rounds' as we call them.
| Objection, yeronner! See Darley Moor 2002, results calculated using SCIENCE I welded up myself, albeit based on characters created by the NVHPV some time in the last century..
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a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Posted By: KevinJ
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 12:31pm
Legs_Larry wrote:
Originally posted by Andrew S
- Until this year the software we use for results wasn't able to combine more than one race (eg a sprint and a criterium) per event. That is now possible and so this year several of the events have multiple 'rounds' as we call them.
| Objection, yeronner! See Darley Moor 2002, results calculated using SCIENCE I welded up myself, albeit based on characters created by the NVHPV some time in the last century.. |
Ok .... My software was useless enough to be able to merge multiple rounds... until this year. Is that more correct? It is difficult makeing this softeare easy enough to use for general use, when in fact they are doing something which is quite complex.
------------- Kevin Jenkins
Windcheetah
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Posted By: Rob
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 1:37pm
KevinJ wrote:
Ok .... My software was useless enough to be able to merge multiple rounds... until this year. Is that more correct? It is difficult makeing this softeare easy enough to use for general use, when in fact they are doing something which is quite complex. |
Ah, is't that just the way... Throttle forward, throttle back. How difficult can the software be??? And how much thanks do you get...
Cheers Kevin!
Rob
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Rob, Westcountry Recumbents
http://www.wrhpv.com http://mullimages.com http://glydearoundbritain.blogspot.com
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Posted By: 25hz
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 4:25pm
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Is there a standing page somewhere that shows the different track layouts and lengths, and track records for the various classes and races?
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Posted By: Adrian Setter
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 5:20pm
The short answer is no. The results pages (see the box on the right hand side of http://www.bhpc.org.uk/information.aspx - http://www.bhpc.org.uk/information.aspx ) mostly carry an indication of lap length and mostly show people's average speeds. Your best chance of getting a look at which circuits are twisty and which are not would be from one of the satellite-imagery sites. Nobody as far as I know has ever collated records. If you're tempted to do it yourself, note that the class definitions have changed from year to year (I'm not intending to initiate any more changes in the immediate future, but that doesn't preclude the membership/AGM from telling me to...)
------------- Challenge Hurricane - MicWic Delta (Front half) - Burrows Ratracer
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Posted By: Rob
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 6:58pm
25hz wrote:
Is there a standing page somewhere that shows the different track layouts and lengths, and track records for the various classes and races? |
How very leftpondian!  Rob
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Rob, Westcountry Recumbents
http://www.wrhpv.com http://mullimages.com http://glydearoundbritain.blogspot.com
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Posted By: LeeW
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 7:25pm
When we eventually start using the transponder timing system proper it would be a nice idea to keep a record of the fastest lap for each circuit.
EDIT: just remembered it is not techically a transponder system.
------------- Current fleet: Milan SL MK2 #027, Fujin SL II, Beany!
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Posted By: 25hz
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 7:29pm
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Well, over here in the colonies, it's nice to be able to hit a page and see what some targets are for your effort, whether it's speed or time. For me, I can't just go race for the sake of riding. I like to have a goal, whether it's a personal one or a current track record to aim for. A nice little page with all the various class records for each track gives me a handy reference point. As you guys have been doing this stuff since the paint on dirt was still wet, I figured you'd have records that spanned eons, or at least a decade or two.
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Posted By: Rob
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 8:16pm
25hz wrote:
Well, over here in the colonies, it's nice to be able to hit a page and see what some targets are for your effort, whether it's speed or time. |
And no problem with that... Just a curious observation that leftpondians like stats where as the races here are usually more a personal case of beating the guys you usually race with... I guess another example is your national obsession with rounders stats vs our cricket players just loosing to everybody. I've also noted this with tourists - Leftpondians want to know how big/long/old something is, other tourists want to know ABOUT it... Weird. Not good or bad, just weird. Rob
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Rob, Westcountry Recumbents
http://www.wrhpv.com http://mullimages.com http://glydearoundbritain.blogspot.com
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Posted By: 25hz
Date Posted: 27 June 2009 at 5:31am
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Yeah, I'm not sure why or how some things differ like that. Coming from a sports background, as I got older it was much easier on people's egos and not so "personal" to be competing against a number or time vs an actual person. Much easier on the ego and ruffles fewer feathers. Eveyone will congratulate a person for beating a track record or winning a race, but people are less enthusiastic about congratulating someone for beating another individual. Maybe the id is a little more sensitive now over here. I also like the stats pages because it can chart a history and recognize the accomplishments of individuals and events, and puts my efforts in perspective.
Up here, it's not so much baseball, but hockey. Football seems to be going through an ebb phase but soccer is slowly gaining ground now that there are semi-pro and pro teams.
I think colonials are more interested in the age of things because everything over here is "new". We don't have towns that are 800 years old, or buildings that have nicks in them from Roman short swords. When you grow up surrounded by many things that are hundreds of years old, maybe they don't seem as impressive anymore. The old "familiarity breeds contempt" kind of thing. A lot of people are interested in the history too, but the age of the thing standing in front of us, or at least me, is always the first impressive thing you can relate to.
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Posted By: Rob
Date Posted: 27 June 2009 at 11:14am
Yeah - here brick Victorian terrace (row of brick built houses, built 1880-1900) are an eyesore to be demolished... Tho I must confess to being impressed when visiting pre-1066ad churches... and the best part of 2000 year old Roman stuff (Roman amphetheatres in south of France and the Ponte du Garde - Roman aquaduct). We have run time trials in the past (10 mile road TT in Edinburgh a-many-of-years ago) but races that break up into small groups riding head-to-head are our usual bread and butter. And I've usually found I've been faster in such races. Rob
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Rob, Westcountry Recumbents
http://www.wrhpv.com http://mullimages.com http://glydearoundbritain.blogspot.com
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 June 2009 at 10:49am
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[QUOTE=Rob] Yeah - here brick Victorian terrace (row of brick built houses, built 1880-1900) are an eyesore to be demolished...
Hey - that's my house!
As others say, we do racing. How fast you go depends on who else turns up.
I was thinking about my opposition to prize money. We don't have a very big membership, but we get good race attendances. There are several people each season who say they had no idea how much fun it is until they tried. It seems a good thing to me. Prize money would not encourage it. We would have to raise more money, which would mean charging more for membership, and hence reducing membership, or charging more for races, and reducing attendance.
Any prize money we could offer is unlikely to defer the fuel costs for people who live further away. We had a good attendance at our Worlds without prize money. There are 193 registered for Tilburg, with no prize money. I think we are doing something right!
We vary the race formats to some extent depending on attendance, so comparison between races at venues is not direct.
As a matter of fact, we are getting some lap records. I timed Slasher Slade at the last 2 events, with a lap counting stopwatch and recorded his fastest lap. I'm not sure if the figures have been published at all.
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Posted By: legs_larry
Date Posted: 29 June 2009 at 12:14pm
Protobikes wrote:
As a matter of fact, we are getting some lap records. I timed Slasher Slade at the last 2 events, with a lap counting stopwatch and recorded his fastest lap. I'm not sure if the figures have been published at all. |
I think Slash still holds the outright lap records for MK Bowl and Eastway from the days of the original Bean.
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a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Posted By: Rob
Date Posted: 29 June 2009 at 3:29pm
legs_larry wrote:
I think Slash still holds the outright lap records for MK Bowl and Eastway from the days of the original Bean. |
Was that the proper MK circuit - with the full powerslide corner at the top and that 30mph descent down through the starting area with an eye-of-the-needle pass between stone gateposts (which is an easy fit on the starting lap!)??? Rob
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Rob, Westcountry Recumbents
http://www.wrhpv.com http://mullimages.com http://glydearoundbritain.blogspot.com
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Posted By: legs_larry
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 12:02pm
Rob wrote:
legs_larry wrote:
I think Slash still holds the outright lap records for MK Bowl and Eastway from the days of the original Bean. |
Was that the proper MK circuit - with the full powerslide corner at the top and that 30mph descent down through the starting area with an eye-of-the-needle pass between stone gateposts (which is an easy fit on the starting lap!)??? Rob
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IIRC it was just the bit around the bowl, rather than with the extended but with the "interesting" corners, trees, etc.
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a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Posted By: 25hz
Date Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:12pm
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With mention of track rcords, I don't suppose there is a list of track records for the various classes and race formats either? :)
While I mentioned the small cash prizes, not all events or even individual races always have cash prizes and i doubt it is the prime motivator for anyone's attendance. It's not liek you could go pay off your mortgage with you winnings, unless you had a very, very small house.
In the HPRA series, it's generally about $20 per class, per day, with discounted pricing for multiple classes and participating in both days of racing. Usually for me, particpating in three classes each day, it's about $70 for both and it's not hard to win some, most or all of that back. The two days and multiple classes gets me about 6 different races per day. Usually a 200m or 1km sprint for each class, plus lap races for each class. I'm not sure what the venue rental fees are, but I thought I remembered someone saying that the insurance for the event was something like $55? I could be wrong on that though. Also, no one has to be a member of the HPRA to race, just sign a waiver. I think maybe the highest turn out of actual racers at an event might be something like 3 dozen or so.
What are the average race fees for a BHPC event?
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Posted By: Paul Lowing
Date Posted: 10 July 2009 at 9:40pm
Race fees are fixed at £7 for members and £10 for non-members, per day.
(Unless I've been so long not racing due to other commitments that it has changed...)
We pay insurance yearly.
The circuit fees to the club are very variable but the income from racing over the year is sufficient to be self-suporting.
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Posted By: jes@gcre
Date Posted: 11 July 2009 at 10:34pm
legs_larry wrote:
Rob wrote:
legs_larry wrote:
I think Slash still holds the outright lap records for MK Bowl and Eastway from the days of the original Bean. |
Was that the proper MK circuit - with the full powerslide corner at the top and that 30mph descent down through the starting area with an eye-of-the-needle pass between stone gateposts (which is an easy fit on the starting lap!)??? Rob
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IIRC it was just the bit around the bowl, rather than with the extended but with the "interesting" corners, trees, etc.
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Yes it was.
Sort of elongated rectangle with a superb corner at the bottom of the hill. Shut your eyes and throw it in flat out in a pedal car but I am guessing a big braking point for a 2 wheeler.
Brilliant circuit.
Give us a shout when you go back.
------------- Racing is life...
Anything which happens before or afterwards is just standing around waiting to race....
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Posted By: richforrest
Date Posted: 12 July 2009 at 7:47am
jes@gcre wrote:
Give us a shout when you go back. |
Don't think it will happen for a while as the road that's used for the race track is now used every Sunday for a market and the road outside that was used the last time it was held here is now the car park.
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Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 14 July 2009 at 10:23am
25hz wrote:
With mention of track rcords, I don't suppose there is a list of track records for the various classes and race formats either? :)
While I mentioned the small cash prizes, not all events or even individual races always have cash prizes and i doubt it is the prime motivator for anyone's attendance. It's not liek you could go pay off your mortgage with you winnings, unless you had a very, very small house.
In the HPRA series, it's generally about $20 per class, per day, with discounted pricing for multiple classes and participating in both days of racing. Usually for me, particpating in three classes each day, it's about $70 for both and it's not hard to win some, most or all of that back. The two days and multiple classes gets me about 6 different races per day. Usually a 200m or 1km sprint for each class, plus lap races for each class. I'm not sure what the venue rental fees are, but I thought I remembered someone saying that the insurance for the event was something like $55? I could be wrong on that though. Also, no one has to be a member of the HPRA to race, just sign a waiver. I think maybe the highest turn out of actual racers at an event might be something like 3 dozen or so.
What are the average race fees for a BHPC event? |
I think 25hz and Paul have made my point for me. With our regular racing turnout, money for winners would be a subsidy for Slash, Mike B, Howie, Claire and whoever in multi track and sport. The equivalent of $70 would be a big disincentive for beginners and slower riders, who are always expressing how much fun it is coming along. We enjoy our decent length races plus other extras.
------------- jdub... Got the T-shirt http://protobikes.org.uk/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/
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Posted By: Yanto63
Date Posted: 14 July 2009 at 10:35am
I agree with jdub, i think cash prizes are a no no, we (I) do it for the fun, exctiment, and chance to race....!
------------- Ian
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