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Topic ClosedNew classes discussion before the AGM

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squeaker View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 10:55am
If I could just chip in here: my background is dinghy racing (sort of wind assisted HPVs? - except if you use too much 'H' power it's deemed 'naughty' and you get penalised) and the 'problem' of how to score long series has been a continuing debate amongst those who are worried about such things.
The folk at Chipstead Sailing Club fall into the later category, and perhaps their system might be of interest to those here who also worry about such things?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 11:23am
Originally posted by antony antony wrote:

Originally posted by NickM NickM wrote:

Yes, you could argue lots of things... but you still wouldn't shake my belief that a person who beats a large field deserves more points than a person who beats a small field.

Then should not also the quality of the field be considered?

A large field of cyclists, vaguely recently:

A small field of cyclists:




Field? Can't see any grass there Clown
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Neil F View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Andrew S Andrew S wrote:

I'm with gNick on this (sorry Neil!). The machine classes should be independent, not sub-classes of each other (with the exception of 'Open', which is why it exists).

Racing involves many elements and skills, not just the ability to go fast. The ability to simply stay upright for the duration of the race is sometimes more important, as those who experienced Fowlmead found. Machine reliability and turning up to a lot of events are also inportant if you are interested in table positions. If your bike breaks then you shouldn't be able to fake the results as if it didn't.

Voluntarily opting for a higher class, as the NoComs have done this season, is a special case and is for the whole season. Anticipating an upgrade or wanting to compete in a higher class are possible/admissible reasons, but there aren't many others I can think of.
 
So can I race for the rest of the season as "fully faired" as I have done more races this year as "fully faired" as anything else?
Now ,as I've raced the NoCom as "part faired", even though it is actually "unfaired", does this mean that I can't race it as "fully faired"?
How is a bike allocated to classes? Is it on the bike itself or what the rider decides to call it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by KevinJ KevinJ wrote:

You need to determine the general principles that people want the races to credit - then we can look at how we can build a points system to cater for it.
I'm with Kevin on this one - reminds me of a similar discussion this time last year: http://www.bhpc.org.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1502&PID=15357#15357 Smile
 
Originally posted by antony antony wrote:

Currently the reverse is true - people are more likely to get more points at poorly-attended races and therefore there's an additional incentive to attend these events, bolstering their fields and making them all the better for that.
This is a very good argument in favour of the current scheme. Unless anyone can come up with a good reason why having more people racing is a bad idea, I'd be in favour of any scheme that is at least as good as the current scheme in this respect.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 7:52pm
I don't believe that most people attend races primarily to gain points. Judith and I turn up regularly because we enjoy race meetings!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by antony antony wrote:

...trying to square the above principles without giving rise to this sort of potential dichotomy is going to be really rather difficult whilever championships are scored by points but there's a conflicting demand that a given number of race wins should guarantee victory irrespective of points scored.


Yes, this is true; that's why I edited my initial post to say "...should be designed with the aim of bringing about this outcome...".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 8:16pm
It was a hard decision weather to race hog hill or go to the internatinal velomobile meeting. As I will now have missed 4 races. In the end I decided on the latter as I'm not that bothered about points and only have open class points as I did 2 races unfaired.
Current fleet: Milan SL MK2 #027, Fujin SL II, Beany!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by NickM NickM wrote:

Yes, you could argue lots of things... but you still wouldn't shake my belief that a person who beats a large field deserves more points than a person who beats a small field.
This sounds a laudable aim but I'd like to see some figures. Given that 'field' actually means 'field per class' (unless we go the way of only having Open class) then I can see problems arising in the smaller classes, such as multitrack and arm-powered. A trike can only possibly beat two or three other trikes, because that's usually all there are in any given race, but a Ratracer has the opportunity to beat many more part-faired bikes.

Either you have to make the points proportional to field size, which defeats what I think is the point, or accept that the available points are different in different classes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Neil F Neil F wrote:

So can I race for the rest of the season as "fully faired" as I have done more races this year as "fully faired" as anything else?
Now ,as I've raced the NoCom as "part faired", even though it is actually "unfaired", does this mean that I can't race it as "fully faired"?
How is a bike allocated to classes? Is it on the bike itself or what the rider decides to call it?



First the classes.
It is the bike that decides the class, with The Inspectre or one of his underlings deciding on grey areas. If you ride in more than one machine class you should have separate numbers for each machine.
This has some exceptions:-
1. If you are unable to ride in your preferred class, say for example you have just had an altercation with an expansion joint in your faired machine and your only other bike is unfaired, you will be allowed to race the unfaired bike in the faired class.
2. Similarly if you are building a faired bike and you haven't finished it yet you would be allowed to start in the class of which your machine isn't yet a member.
3. If you feel that you would prefer to compete against people who nominally are in a class above you then you can opt in to that class and opt out of the one you should be in.
All of these exceptions should be sorted out when you sign on or before so that people know about it. It may be possible to change your class afterwards BUT this is at the discretion of The Keeper Of Thee Records since they are the one who will have to be doing the work. Don't count on it.

If you want to have all your results adjusted so that you count in Faired you are welcome to ask but the upping class issue is not really there to cover changes in this way, it is to help those who may have machine or travel problems or haven't quite finished a project not to cover a change of plan part way through a season.
Ask The Keeper Of Thee Records though, requests might even be accepted!

gNick



"I'm afraid it's definite, Mrs Banker - your son has bicycles"
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Andrew S View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:21pm
Since this is a special case, given Neil's badly messed-up season, I propose moving this offline to PMs.

KoTR


Edited by Andrew S - 11 September 2008 at 9:22pm
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