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wheel building puzzle

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stormbird View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 April 2019 at 7:50am
Hi all

Any wheel builders on here ?

I set off with Roger Musson book 2 x new Sun 20" rims  & SS spokes & SA hub brakes 70mm

The spokes were added with a tool that left all the nipples at the same depth on the spoke.

When it came to the first run around to take up the slack I found all of the spokes in the first 2 sets were loose.

All the spokes in the 2 sets that had been added to hold the hub twist in were tight ?

This was the same on the second wheel I built ?

I also have a set built by someone else , my spoking pattern is identical except for 2 things.

Following Rogers notes my spoke heads are the opposite way around to the built wheel I have.

I have a 2 cross pattern however my second cross away from the hub do not weave under each other and touch , they just cross and have maybe a .25" gap between them.

regards Paul


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Adrian Setter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adrian Setter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2019 at 10:51am
I have built wheels but I wouldn't call myself a wheel builder. However I think I may have had a similar experience (with a wheel someone else built!)

I'm not entirely sure from your description when it was that you found your spokes were loose, but I'm guessing that it was after your first ride on the newly-built wheels.

I once bought a new bike (in fact, it was my first recumbent but I've no reason to think the riding position had anything to do with the problem) and after riding just a few miles the spokes in the front wheel were loose. A couple of nipples had even detached entirely from the spokes.  Thinking that they may have been under-tightened from the start, I re-tensioned everything and went for another ride.  Same thing happened.  I took the bike back to the supplier, whose mechanic - even before looking at the wheel - pronounced that the maker must have got the apprentice to build it because the spokes weren't "woven".  He meant that the spokes crossed without going one side, then the other, so didn't touch, just like you've built your wheel. He was right. He rebuilt the wheel, just the same but with the spokes woven. That wheel has now lasted 20 years and thousands of miles without any further attention, so I can confidently say "case solved".

I have absolutely no idea why failing to weave the spokes might cause the nipples to work loose. It's an even greater mystery how it is that, if weaving them is significant, radially-spoked wheels work.
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stormbird View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stormbird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2019 at 12:55pm
Adrian

Thanks for relating your experience.

Not ridden them as I was sure they were not right and so have not got to the tensioning stage yet.  

I have redone one of the wheels with the spokes crossed and now nothing is rattle loose just a couple a little slacker than the others. 

Seems odd the over spokes now bow alarming however it is now quite a lot more rigid than the other one.

So on to tensioning me thinks.

regards Paul

 


Edited by stormbird - 28 April 2019 at 1:02pm
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Yowie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yowie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 9:46pm
I am a builder.  I don't know the book you refer to.  The only one I read was by the late Jobst Brandt, and it's a good starter (for anyone else out there beginning).

From what you said about the difference between the wheel and the book, It sounds like one is the mirror of the other.  Assuming you have the basic build correct: valve gap is 'open'.  And you're building the same 2X on both sides.

What I'm referring to is that contentious issue of whether leading or trailing spokes come from inside the flange or outside on the drive side.  Some people will swear it must be one or t'other, citing reasons like hub wind-up or the effect of pedalling pulling the spokes away from the cassette (perhaps important in 1st gear, if the clearance is small.)

Sun's CR18 rim has angled spoke holes, so you can't build it either way - you have to conform to one or other pattern.

ETEOD, it'll be fine, as long as you have you tension high enough and spokes evenly sprung.  You can't always dip under the neighbouring side spoke on the second cross in your example.  It is a good idea to do this if you can.  The big size of the flange and the relative small size of the rim, will dictate.  Just make a decision either way.

Hope this helps.  Sorry, all of your questions are not clear to me.
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stormbird View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stormbird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2019 at 10:33am
Yowie


To get the second cross [ out towards the rim ] I had to undo completely each spoke pair and then add the cross.

However it looks a lot better , just need to get a usable tension.

regards Paul


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arellcat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2019 at 10:53pm
Is it for a trike, Paul?

On my Windcheetah, all of the spokes were outbound (Jobst Brandt-speak for spoke heads on the inside), and were laced one-cross on each side, with the trailing spokes crossing under the leading spokes.  Most other Windcheetahs have their front wheels laced that way.

Sometimes you'd lace two-cross in the conventional manner, with outbound leading spokes crossing under the inbound trailing spokes.  Heavily swaged spokes, being more flexible mid-span, would make two-cross easier to build.  My Quest's front wheels are two-cross, and replacing a spoke requires quite a lot of spoke bending to perform the cross while keeping the threaded end away from the rim.

Like Howard, I have a copy of Jobst Brandt, and I've found it an excellent reference.


Edited by Arellcat - 05 May 2019 at 10:55pm
carbon Quest, Lightning P-38, RANS Sequoia
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stormbird View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stormbird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2019 at 7:45am
Arellcat

Yes they are for the rear wheels of a Python trike.



Thats the ' curry ' run ?

Tensioning is going well if slowly due to other commitments and they should be in use later this week.

Does the Quest break the odd spoke ?

regards Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arellcat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2019 at 10:48pm
My Quest's front wheels weren't as well built from the factory as I perhaps expected.  Three spokes in 9000 miles is enough, but I'll be interested to see how many more go in the next 9000, considering that I've since redone both of them to get them tensioned properly.
carbon Quest, Lightning P-38, RANS Sequoia
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