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Fairing / Shell for handbike or custom handbike

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Forum Name: Building
Forum Description: Anything to do with building HPVs
URL: https://forum.bhpc.org.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6600
Printed Date: 28 March 2024 at 2:52pm
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Topic: Fairing / Shell for handbike or custom handbike
Posted By: Ken
Subject: Fairing / Shell for handbike or custom handbike
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 12:22pm

Hi everyone,

I’m new here so my apologies for being behind on the experience that many of you already appear to have and for missing what might be fairly obvious.

Anyway, I’m wondering what it would take to build a (“bold on”) carbon fibre shell for my handbike or what it might take to build a custom hand/bike shell monocoque

I’m thinking a monocoque would most likely using a stock handbike fork so the remainder of the shell to be built would be the aero portion/ aspect, seat, headtube, and rear axle.

Additionally, I’m wondering if there is someone experienced with carbon fibre work and has the resources to build such an item.

I’m looking for options for a serious consideration on a world record attempt next year.

Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.

Ken




Replies:
Posted By: AlanGoodman
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 1:07pm
Jonathan Woolrich has a lot of experience with fast handcycles... I'll point him to this thread.

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Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 2:35pm
I don't think "bolt on" is a good way to go. You want something completely different from a faired machine than you do from a "stock" handcycle. You might want to look at Liverpool University who are working on a handcycle for next year University of Liverpool Velocipede Team - ULVTeam on FB, or talk to Alan Grace who took his Slippery Slug to Battle Mountain. Send me a message and I will give you his email. Building any kind of faired machine is a lot of work! Mike Nelthorpe at HQ Fibre Products, Norfolk can build anything you want. I don't have resources.
Originally posted by Ken Ken wrote:


Hi everyone,

I’m new here so my apologies for being behind on the experience that many of you already appear to have and for missing what might be fairly obvious.

Anyway, I’m wondering what it would take to build a (“bold on”) carbon fibre shell for my handbike or what it might take to build a custom hand/bike shell monocoque

I’m thinking a monocoque would most likely using a stock handbike fork so the remainder of the shell to be built would be the aero portion/ aspect, seat, headtube, and rear axle.

Additionally, I’m wondering if there is someone experienced with carbon fibre work and has the resources to build such an item.

I’m looking for options for a serious consideration on a world record attempt next year.

Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.

Ken



-------------
jdub... Got the T-shirt
http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/Protobikes/library
http://protobikes.org.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/



Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 7:33pm
Creating a hard shell from scratch is a lot of hard work. Only for the very dedicated!

Which isn't to say it can't be done - my account of doing this many years ago (but still holds true) used to be on the BHPC website, but I can't see it now - anybody know where it is?


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Ken
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 11:16pm
Cheers all,

Thanks for the re-direct Alan.

Aye, a "Bolt-on" isn't ideal, just a consideration in case a full faired frame wasn't possible, or unachievable. 

I've had a look at the Liverpool bike and unless they are doing something with a fairing added onto it, it's really not that much different than a stock handbike, bar the weight, and I think that's the key. Frankly, I'm a bit baffled by their attempt. The only benefit I can see so far is that the riders toes are pointed forward which is probably possible if you're paralysed, but I'm not so my foot position can't be made too aero. 

There was a woman, a year or two ago, who used a faired kneeler with head controlled steering but form the looks of that, it was excessively complicated that probably negated any aerodynamic gains, not that it seems to have much of an aerodynamic shape. But her speed didn't seem to reflect the effot that was likely spend on the bike design.

JDub, I had a look at Slipper Slug. Looks like a reasonable design and partially similar to what I've envisioned. Mind, how difference can you really get with 'tapered, teardrop, aerodynamic, & low'?

GeoffBird, Aye, I thought as much, also why I had considered a "bolt-on" as that could be more simple that a full bike, and with less structural considerations. But, it'd be interesting to see how feasible/ complex it would be, as well as how realistic of a time frame it would be, and what the cost would be. Theoretically it'd be self-funded unless I could get a kickstarter thing happening, and I'd be happy to take on some of the work but I'm guessing I'm pretty far away from any builders up here in Scotland.

But all in all, I feel the need to set a record.


Posted By: GeoffBird
Date Posted: 06 November 2017 at 12:14pm
Hi Ken, just found my article. I've had a lot of experience of this sort of thing and this is probably the easiest and cheapest way of getting a good result:  http://www.bhpc.org.uk/Constructors/Bird/zen-and-the-art-of-fairing-construction.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.bhpc.org.uk/Constructors/Bird/zen-and-the-art-of-fairing-construction.aspx

IIRC, Alan Grace used a very similar technique. I published an article about Alan's build in the BHPC magazine (LaidBack Cyclist). It was in Issue 119:  http://shop.bhpc.org.uk/bhpc-magazine-issue-119" rel="nofollow - http://shop.bhpc.org.uk/bhpc-magazine-issue-119


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Right Time - Right Place - Wrong Speed


Posted By: Ken
Date Posted: 06 November 2017 at 1:27pm
Cheers, I'll have a look at those


Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 06 November 2017 at 7:02pm
I think the bike Liverpool were testing is Karen's. If not, it is a commercial racing handcycle. I don't think that is a good start for a faired machine. I don't think the weight matters much for record setting. Liz McTernon rode the Plymouth machine with head steering and hated it. She has rather limited muscle use, but I think it is poor anyway. Alan tried working with them but could not get on with them. He's a very easy going guy. It was very uncomfortable and not very aero. In 2016 it did set a record with another rider, but still quite poor.
Alan Grace ordered a 2 wheel handcycle from Kinetics in Scotland. Over a year and no sign of delivery. From past experience, that is how it is with them, so I do not recommend.
The slug was designed by eye. Can probably improve quite a bit with a design with a better gradient.  
Originally posted by Ken Ken wrote:

Cheers all,

Thanks for the re-direct Alan.

Aye, a "Bolt-on" isn't ideal, just a consideration in case a full faired frame wasn't possible, or unachievable. 

I've had a look at the Liverpool bike and unless they are doing something with a fairing added onto it, it's really not that much different than a stock handbike, bar the weight, and I think that's the key. Frankly, I'm a bit baffled by their attempt. The only benefit I can see so far is that the riders toes are pointed forward which is probably possible if you're paralysed, but I'm not so my foot position can't be made too aero. 

There was a woman, a year or two ago, who used a faired kneeler with head controlled steering but form the looks of that, it was excessively complicated that probably negated any aerodynamic gains, not that it seems to have much of an aerodynamic shape. But her speed didn't seem to reflect the effot that was likely spend on the bike design.

JDub, I had a look at Slipper Slug. Looks like a reasonable design and partially similar to what I've envisioned. Mind, how difference can you really get with 'tapered, teardrop, aerodynamic, & low'?

GeoffBird, Aye, I thought as much, also why I had considered a "bolt-on" as that could be more simple that a full bike, and with less structural considerations. But, it'd be interesting to see how feasible/ complex it would be, as well as how realistic of a time frame it would be, and what the cost would be. Theoretically it'd be self-funded unless I could get a kickstarter thing happening, and I'd be happy to take on some of the work but I'm guessing I'm pretty far away from any builders up here in Scotland.

But all in all, I feel the need to set a record.


-------------
jdub... Got the T-shirt
http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/Protobikes/library
http://protobikes.org.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/



Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 06 November 2017 at 7:08pm
A correx fairing should be good enough to break current records. Might have to build something to attach it to. Can you ride 2 wheels? If you are in Scotland you are a long way away. I still have the record handcycle, widened to 360mm across the seat. Also the trainer version converted into a leaning 3 wheeler.  

-------------
jdub... Got the T-shirt
http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/Protobikes/library
http://protobikes.org.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/



Posted By: Ken
Date Posted: 25 November 2017 at 11:32pm
Aye, Karen's bike, I believe, is the F-1 designed bike she had in Rio. It did have a minor design flaw apparently, in that it was fragile enough that the drafting bar broke off which disqualified her on one of the races. And it does seem like the wrong design to attach a fairing onto (to me at least).

I suppose you could argue weight is both a pro and con, with the short run-up  of the handbikes it's be good for acceleration but the added mass giving momentum would also be beneficial once at speed. IT's probably one of the least significant factors on a flat run though (to a point).

I've seen the bike with the head steering and I'm baffled by it. It's excessively complicates and probably pointlessly heavy because of it. It didn't appear to be well shaped for aerodynamics (of course we all know that looks are very deceiving when it comes to aerodynamics though) and though the kneeling position theoretically allows you to put out more power, that's due in part to the ability to use your torso, and if your head is locked into the steering, you've just taken away that advantage.

I've heard rumours about a builder/ supplier in Scotland but had no idea who it was. A year with no delivery doesn't sound good at all.

Do you know when the Slug was designed? Lot's of resources available these days that can make for a more refined build (in so many industries).


Posted By: Ken
Date Posted: 25 November 2017 at 11:40pm
The Correx Fairing idea looks interesting.

I suppose the debate is: If I'm going to do this, do I just want to break current records or do I want to define a record unsurpassed since the dawn of time, a record that the leg powered folk with envy and dream to reach, one that will stand the test of time... and what's the right tool for it.

Especially if I'm going to have to travel so far to do it.

I've not tried riding a 2-wheeled handbike. In fact, I've never seen one. In the veleodrome debates I've had with a riding colleague, he's mentioned having seen a 2-wheeler on a velodrome before, but balance it a bit tricky, and I have some torso issues.

Aye, I'm in Scotland. But I've got relatives in the States so it'd be easy enough to get things sorted as long as I can get gear shipped over.

You still have the record handcycle? Faired, I take it? What's the record on it? I knew at some point but it's slipped my mind at the moment.


Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 28 November 2017 at 10:47pm
I did mention to Alan Grace you might contact him. I think the dates are on the article Geoff sent. Alan would have gone full CAD/CAM, but time and money were not available, after wasting lots of time with Plymouth. Amongst a room full of sleek streamliners, that machine rather stood out.

Originally posted by Ken Ken wrote:

Aye, Karen's bike, I believe, is the F-1 designed bike she had in Rio. It did have a minor design flaw apparently, in that it was fragile enough that the drafting bar broke off which disqualified her on one of the races. And it does seem like the wrong design to attach a fairing onto (to me at least).

I suppose you could argue weight is both a pro and con, with the short run-up  of the handbikes it's be good for acceleration but the added mass giving momentum would also be beneficial once at speed. IT's probably one of the least significant factors on a flat run though (to a point).

I've seen the bike with the head steering and I'm baffled by it. It's excessively complicates and probably pointlessly heavy because of it. It didn't appear to be well shaped for aerodynamics (of course we all know that looks are very deceiving when it comes to aerodynamics though) and though the kneeling position theoretically allows you to put out more power, that's due in part to the ability to use your torso, and if your head is locked into the steering, you've just taken away that advantage.

I've heard rumours about a builder/ supplier in Scotland but had no idea who it was. A year with no delivery doesn't sound good at all.

Do you know when the Slug was designed? Lot's of resources available these days that can make for a more refined build (in so many industries).


-------------
jdub... Got the T-shirt
http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/Protobikes/library
http://protobikes.org.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/



Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 28 November 2017 at 11:10pm
I have the bike that set 4,000m, 10,000m and 1 hour at Manchester Velodrome. It only had a tail fairing and I don't have that. I widened it to 360mm across the cushion. Quite small. Also have a tilting 3 wheel version nearly working.  
Originally posted by Ken Ken wrote:

The Correx Fairing idea looks interesting.

I suppose the debate is: If I'm going to do this, do I just want to break current records or do I want to define a record unsurpassed since the dawn of time, a record that the leg powered folk with envy and dream to reach, one that will stand the test of time... and what's the right tool for it.

Especially if I'm going to have to travel so far to do it.

I've not tried riding a 2-wheeled handbike. In fact, I've never seen one. In the veleodrome debates I've had with a riding colleague, he's mentioned having seen a 2-wheeler on a velodrome before, but balance it a bit tricky, and I have some torso issues.

Aye, I'm in Scotland. But I've got relatives in the States so it'd be easy enough to get things sorted as long as I can get gear shipped over.

You still have the record handcycle? Faired, I take it? What's the record on it? I knew at some point but it's slipped my mind at the moment.


-------------
jdub... Got the T-shirt
http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/Protobikes/library
http://protobikes.org.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/



Posted By: Ken
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 12:59pm
Ah, right. Tail fairing is good but for those distances, I would think a nose of some sort would be very useful, not necessarily for speed, but just to reduce the power requirement for endurance.

I've not quite understood the tilting 3-wheel bikes. I was doing some reading on those the other day and so many of them seem to be designed to use one of the outrigger wheels all the time. If that's the case, why not simply use 3 wheels as normal and eliminate the weight and drag of the the extra outrigger? Sure, if you can get it up on two wheels it's advantageous, but the more recumbent you are (and handbikes are very recumbent) the more difficult it would be to keep balanced, especially with linked power and steering where an imbalance of power input affects steering which affects balance.


Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:20pm
The tilting 3 wheeler rides like a 2 wheeler but can be locked upright at a halt. It is intended as a trainer for the 2 wheeler. The bikes I built and on which records were set were 2 wheels. I only got as far as a tail fairing. They were designed for fully faired https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.315155438835071.1073741853.100010218519559&type=3
It includes a pic of the M5 2 wheeler, which has 2 wheels and a layed back rider. The layed back steering head used on conventional handcycles will not work on 2 wheels. The rest will. If you are going fully faired, the fairing has to go over the hand cranks, so might as well sit up more and make the machine easier to ride and more compact. If you can't see, send me a msg and I will send my email addr.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.315155438835071.1073741853.100010218519559&type=3" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.315155438835071.1073741853.100010218519559&type=3


-------------
jdub... Got the T-shirt
http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/Protobikes/library
http://protobikes.org.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/



Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 8:31pm
I'd agree Jonathan has most experience but you could also check out Varna and see if they have any ideas.  http://www.varnahandcycles.com/handcycles.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.varnahandcycles.com/handcycles.htm  Georgi may be interested and they have a special projects department and certainly know a bit about fairings. 

Roy


Posted By: Ken
Date Posted: 21 February 2018 at 8:31pm
Thanks for the pictures Jonathan. Interesting design with the tilting 3-wheeler.

You raise a good point about the steering as that is definitely a balance with a handbike. A steering tube with a more vertical angle, I would think, would reduce the amount of power that could be put through the cranks as an imbalance in arm power would affect the steering more, requiring more effort and control to manage the steering. But, at an extreme with a horizontal steering tube, the power input is perpendicular to the rotation of the steering thus having less of an impact. And that, of course, has to be countered against the drag of 3 vs 2 wheels. Really all comes down to how much you need to steer for the use of the bike.

Aye, without covering the cranks you really might as well not even bother with a fairing. But, since a bike like a Force RX has the drivetrain, forks, and riders head and shoulders covered within the vertical travel of the cranks, you can effectively get a lot of coverage of the rest of the bike in the same shape. The main drawback that I I've encountered is that, giving enough clearance for the elbows results in a rather wide shell, and everything has to be fit within the restriction (or rather large size) of the cranks and shoulder area as a the limiting factor. You just can't sardine a handcyclist like you can a leg cyclist.

Given what I want to achieve, I'm not to concerned about the bike being easy to ride, what I'll be looking for is the most efficient power transfer and best aerodynamic possibilities to maximise the power that will be available.

 Thanks Roy, I hadn't thought about Varna. Don't really hear much about them over here.


Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 25 February 2018 at 6:24pm
"A steering tube with a more vertical angle, I would think, would reduce the amount of power that could be put through the cranks as an imbalance in arm power would affect the steering more, requiring more effort and control to manage the steering. But, at an extreme with a horizontal steering tube,"

I don't know why you would think this. I don't think it is true at all. Control on 2 wheels is quite natural and there is no power loss.


-------------
jdub... Got the T-shirt
http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/Protobikes/library
http://protobikes.org.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/



Posted By: Ken
Date Posted: 02 March 2018 at 4:44pm
I was just thinking of a situation where a rider might have an imbalance of power between their arms.
 A more horizontal steering tube puts the force of the power input perpendicular to the rotational movement of the steering rather than inline with it. With the force of power then working perpendicular to the steering movement, an imbalance might cause less of an interaction with the steering, thus lessening the need to reduce power to prevent extraneous steering inputs.

Similarly, in a situation where bursts of all-out power are needed, the less that power is in the same direction of movement as the steering the more the rider could focus strictly on the full implementation of power rather than compensating for steering.

Of course, this is all theoretical as, even a completely horizontal steering tube will not separate the movement of steering as power is applied due to the leverage of the cranks and hand position (as well as pedalling technique).

There are certainly advantages to a 2 wheel bike, but there are also advantages to a 3 wheel bike and I think it's finding the balance between the two in conjunction with the riders styles and needs. Some rider migh simply not be able to control a 2 wheel bike due to their ability to control their own body.
 


Posted By: JDub
Date Posted: 04 March 2018 at 1:14pm
You are cranking both together. There isn't a difference of power. The difference made by steering is very slight. If the rider can balance on the back wheels of a chair, they should have no problem balancing a 2 wheel handcycle.  



-------------
jdub... Got the T-shirt
http://s1127.photobucket.com/user/Protobikes/library
http://protobikes.org.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150386999@N02/




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