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406 tubeless rims

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Kim View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 March 2022 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Kim Kim wrote:

Yes, that's exactly the problem I was having. Result is enough of a bulge (5mm or so) that any power savings from the fast-rolling tyre are cancelled out by incessant ratting of the rider's BRANEZ/fillings/eyeballs/etc:







(Rim pictured is a Mavic XM117.)

When a Durano is fitted, the moulding line below the logo is visible all the way round the tyre.

Belated followup to this:

I've finally taken the plunge and muked about with tubeless.  Findings:

Kinlin XR240 + 28-406 Pro One (same tyre and rim I've been running with a lightweight tube for a couple of years), seated itself perfectly with a *whump* (with none of the persuasion required to get it to seat properly with a tube).  Sealed shortly afterwards.  Has been holding at about 90PSI or so for several days.

Mavic XM117 + 28-559 Pro One, which I'd previously given up on in favour of a Conti Grand Prix.  Again, this seated itself perfectly with a *whump* *BANG-BANG!* *Psssssth...*.  Unfortunately I couldn't achieve a proper seal at the valve, even after I noticed and removed the plastic insert in the hole, and tried a couple of different shapes of tubeless valve (and the valve cut from a dead inner tube, because why not), and re-applied the tape.  The problem seems to be the deep central channel in the relatively narrow rim complicating the seal around the valve.

Alex DV15 + 28-559 Pro One.  Ultra-violence required to get the tyre onto the rim.  Seems much more promising in the valve department, and after a bit of messing around, I thought I'd persuaded it to seal, but it had deflated by the time I went downstairs to check the type of rim.  Further sleuthing required to work out what's leaking.


From this I conclude:

- Seating a tubeless tyre isn't the same as seating a tyre with a tube.  Not sure if the difference is the lubrication effect of the sealant, or that the air pressure works to push the tyre up the rim more when not constrained in a tube, but it's definitely a lot easier.

- Flat-bottomed rims are better for the valve to seal against.  Avoid trying to fit Presta valves in Schrader holes.  Conical ones will fit the hole, but are prone to wobbling and breaking the seal when you attach a pump.

- Narrow rims and wide valve ends mean the bead ends up sitting on top of the valve and the air blows through the gap, so the tyre never inflates.

- Tubeless tape is finicky.  Correct tape width and clean surfaces help, but it's easy to ruin it with tearing at the valve hole or wrinkling the tape while fitting a tight tyre.

- All this ****ing around it significantly less stressful if you have a compressor that can dump a load of air into the tyre quickly.

- Tubeless schmoo is basically thin Copydex, and does much the same thing when allowed to dry on the back of your hand.


Edited by Kim - 30 March 2022 at 8:31pm
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LWaB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LWaB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2019 at 10:56pm
It seems that Ginkgo have another tubeless 406 option
https://www.ginkgo-veloteile.de/ginkgoshop/en/Wheel-Accessories/Rims/Rims-20-Inch-406-mm/Fratelli-FX2035-Air-20-406mm-320gr.html though 129EU per rim is a bit noticeable.

Several velomobile folk run narrow tubeless tyres successfully and some useful advice can be found at http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=146429
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2019 at 7:01pm
I just did the 406, and dry the first bead looked to be as hard as the 559 was, so I got out the Easy Fit and I was able to put the first bead on the rim by hand. Then I did the second bead on my own with the aid of the Kool Tool. Took a fraction of the time the 559 did with two people.

However the tyre is out of true in exactly the same way the 559 was, and in the exactly the same places. At the logos. I seated it equally at low pressure but when I pumped it up it went out of place again. I've pumped it up to full pressure and will look at it tomorrow. 

They are designed to be popped into place at over 200 psi and that is how Daniel Fenn and co were putting theirs on. Maybe that has something to do with the issue? 

Tempted to run them tubeless even though I'm using rim brakes. I could fit one of Mike's mono forks on the front which would have a disc brake mount on I guess. I did take the precaution of using a rim brake hub for the wheels so that I could use the rims on the Fujin if I wanted to. The rear frame of the D6 is not at all straightforward for the fitting of a disc though.

Roy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2019 at 2:16pm
Overnight the tyre has improved and is now 1 mm if that out and looks pretty well seated correctly.

I did read up on the Schwalbe web site and they say to use soapy water or their easy fit solution to fit the Pro 1. I must confess I was thinking in standard tyre fitting mode because I was fitting a tube. They say the Pro 1 has a special shaped bead to make it seal against the rim in tubeless mode. I have some Easy Fit as well. I'll make sure I use it next time.

Roy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2019 at 8:29pm
Kim, I have improved the fit somewhat by deflating then taping the bumps down and reflating the tyre. The idea being to push the tyre further down on the rim at that point when it's re-inflated. It's about 1.5 mm out of round now instead of 3 mm. I've ordered a Continental Grand Prix slick though to see how that fits. I notice it's a higher pressure tyre than the Pro 1 so it may have less rolling resistance. 

All the best. 
Roy




Edited by RoyMacdonald - 07 June 2019 at 8:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2019 at 9:15pm
Thanks Kim. Looks to be in exactly the same place as mine as well. It's strange because my 28-540 fitted just fine and without issue with a tube.

All the best.
Roy 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2019 at 8:53pm
Yes, that's exactly the problem I was having. Result is enough of a bulge (5mm or so) that any power savings from the fast-rolling tyre are cancelled out by incessant ratting of the rider's BRANEZ/fillings/eyeballs/etc:







(Rim pictured is a Mavic XM117.)

When a Durano is fitted, the moulding line below the logo is visible all the way round the tyre.

Edited by kim - 06 June 2019 at 9:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2019 at 7:43pm
I just noticed that they tyre is equal on opposite sides but not all round. On both sides where there is the Pro 1 logo it is out and where there is no logo it is seated where I expected.


Roy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2019 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by kim kim wrote:

FWIW, I've had no real problems with Pro One (admittedly using a lightweight inner tube) on a 406 Kinlin XR240. It's a bit on the tight side, but it goes on just fine.

OTOH, I've yet to manage to get one to seat on a 559 rim successfully. I've tried three different rims and two different rim tapes, lubrication, harsh language, massive overpressure, getting a replacement tyre because by that point I was sure it was a manufacturing defect, etc. I've given up and gone back to Durano. If anyone knows of a combination that actually works, I'd be interested to hear about it...

What was the problem with the seating Kim?

I've just put the 28-559 onto the new rim for the Great White and it was very hard. The most difficult part was getting the first bead onto the rim. Took two people and the Kool Mate with brute force. The second bead I managed on my own with the help of the Kool Mate but it is not as perfectly equally seated as I normally get. It looks to be about a couple of mm out at one point looking at what I take to be the seating mark on the tyre. Does anyone think it matters? I've had no success in reseating it. Just seems to take that position. It is so tight on the rim though I can't see it ever coming off.

I think if I was running it tubeless it would seat better possibly. But I've read it's not advisable to run tubeless with rim brakes because they heat the tyre up which can cause it to come off. Hard to imagine anything making them come off with that degree of tightness though.

All the best
Roy




Edited by RoyMacdonald - 06 June 2019 at 7:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 June 2019 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by LWaB LWaB wrote:

I have about a dozen different types of tyre levers, including 3 types of tyre jacks. I also recommend tyre jacks for fitting tight narrow tyres but the IceTools Pincers broke the first time I tried them.

Is there a problem of small tubeless tyres being less effective in real world use because of a lack of air volume or sealant volume, when compared to big wheels?

Daniel Fenn and Richard and Veronika Schaffenroth all had 406 tubless on the front wheels of their Velomobiles and I know Richard had a puncture on the ride back to the camp site that sealed straight away.

I'm on my second season third tyre of running a Schwalbe Pro 1 with a lightweight tube  on the back of my Kingcycle. 28 - 540 and that goes on reasonably easily and seats well without issue. Grips well on the track and road. 

Roy


Edited by RoyMacdonald - 04 June 2019 at 4:03pm
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